Augustine, a game of Telephone
« on: January 19, 2023, 08:53:59 PM »
Original
I Harold Samson say
The Game of Telephone. (aka Chain Transmission Experiment)
It's interesting how some Catholics worship Augustine and some Protestants from the Reformed tradition also worship Augustine. And there's both Catholics and Protestants who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment. For me, there's this general notion of, the longer it's been since Christ was on Earth, the more corrupted church doctrines become and the more they deviate from the truth. Like all these church denominations that emerged recently like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Lordship Salvationists who promote false works salvations like water baptism, charity work, etc.
It's like a game of telephone, Chinese whispers, transmission chain experiments. The first person says something than the next person who hears it might miss something and this keeps going until the final message is completely different from what the first person said.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.?
With Universal Salvation through Christ, it was right there at the beginning. Truth in it's purest form. Same thing with salvation through faith alone Early Christians made poetry praising Universal Reconciliation and the Early Church fathers wrote papers showing it's true.
Thus, the best way to find the truth is to look at it directly. Rather than looking simply at the English translations of the Old Testament and New Testament, we should look at the original meaning of the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek words from the original scriptures in order to get information from the source.
JEREMIAH 32:27, 32, 37, 40 I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me
Academically, it?s like getting information by reading the source, instead of reading information you got from a news article that talked about the source. Because each stage of the transmission process loses information.
JEREMIAH 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
In Photoshop, if I keep resizing a file, it will keep losing its data and eventually, even when I try to resize it back to its original size, it?s noticeably blurrier (That?s why newer versions of Photoshop added a check mark feature for you to confirm whether you want to resize it or not]
JOEL 2:28, 3:21 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people ... Their bloodguilt which I have not pardoned, I will pardon.
WhiteWings says in response
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Re: Augustine, a game of Telephone
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2023, 01:39:01 PM »
Quote
Quote
Thus, the best way to find the truth is to look at it directly. Rather than looking simply at the English translations of the Old Testament and New Testament, we should look at the original meaning of the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek words from the original scriptures in order to get information from the source.
True, but beware the 'the originals' are tweaked too.
A good example is this page. It's not inspired Hebrew.
https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0106.htm
When Moses wrote Gen 6:4 the Hebrew letters looked way different. Quite a bit like what you see in pyramids. Ezra invented the square letters we have now. But those little dots you see above and below the letters were invented long after the NT was completed. Obviously the OT was completed far before that.
Why is that important you may ask.
Hebrew never had consonants (a, e, i, o, and u) nobody we know for the Bible ever seen or heard about them. Those little dots tell us how to pronounce words. The act as consonants.
One example in English.
What does "HT" mean? Which consonants are missing?
HOT
HIT
HAT
HIAT
HUT
Have you ever wondered why some translations of Gen 6:4 read "giants" and other "fallen ones"?
The answer is it depends on how you (not) use the those 'consonant' dots.
The HS never inspired them to Moses, so Moses never wrote them down. Besides that because they didn't exist, Moses couldn't even write them down.
All that said, I truly believe Moses knew it means giant or fallen. But do we?
Likewise there might be similar things in the OT.
The English translation might be 100% perfect; but if the underplaying text has the wrong marks it's still not what was originally inspired.
Similar things are all over the place. Old languages for example didn't have a simple comma. But yet that comma can change the meaning of the verse.
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, ?Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.?
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, ?Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.?
Look very well at the position of the red comma.
In one verse Jesus states the thief and He Himself will be in paradise on crucifixion day.
In the other verse Jesus only vows the thief will be in paradise, but doesn't give a time.
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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<< - >>> Free Bible study material <<<
Re: Augustine, a game of Telephone
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2023, 01:39:01 PM »
Quote
Quote
Thus, the best way to find the truth is to look at it directly. Rather than looking simply at the English translations of the Old Testament and New Testament, we should look at the original meaning of the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek words from the original scriptures in order to get information from the source.
True, but beware the 'the originals' are tweaked too.
A good example is this page. It's not inspired Hebrew.
https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0106.htm
When Moses wrote Gen 6:4 the Hebrew letters looked way different. Quite a bit like what you see in pyramids. Ezra invented the square letters we have now. But those little dots you see above and below the letters were invented long after the NT was completed. Obviously the OT was completed far before that.
Why is that important you may ask.
Hebrew never had consonants (a, e, i, o, and u) nobody we know for the Bible ever seen or heard about them. Those little dots tell us how to pronounce words. The act as consonants.
One example in English.
What does "HT" mean? Which consonants are missing?
HOT
HIT
HAT
HIAT
HUT
Have you ever wondered why some translations of Gen 6:4 read "giants" and other "fallen ones"?
The answer is it depends on how you (not) use the those 'consonant' dots.
The HS never inspired them to Moses, so Moses never wrote them down. Besides that because they didn't exist, Moses couldn't even write them down.
All that said, I truly believe Moses knew it means giant or fallen. But do we?
Likewise there might be similar things in the OT.
The English translation might be 100% perfect; but if the underplaying text has the wrong marks it's still not what was originally inspired.
Similar things are all over the place. Old languages for example didn't have a simple comma. But yet that comma can change the meaning of the verse.
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, ?Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.?
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, ?Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.?
Look very well at the position of the red comma.
In one verse Jesus states the thief and He Himself will be in paradise on crucifixion day.
In the other verse Jesus only vows the thief will be in paradise, but doesn't give a time.
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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<< - >>> Free Bible study material <<<
Re: Augustine, a game of Telephone
« Reply #2 on: Today at 09:11:58 PM »
QuoteModifyRemove
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 22, 2023, 01:39:01 PM
True, but beware the 'the originals' are tweaked too.
Hebrew never had consonants (a, e, i, o, and u) nobody we know for the Bible ever seen or heard about them. Those little dots tell us how to pronounce words. The act as consonants.
Have you ever wondered why some translations of Gen 6:4 read "giants" and other "fallen ones"?
In one verse Jesus states the thief and He Himself will be in paradise on crucifixion day.
In the other verse Jesus only vows the thief will be in paradise, but doesn't give a time.
Thank you for your response, WhiteWing my friend, this is very interesting. I agree with you that even the original manuscripts can be tweaked too. For instance, some manuscripts list the number of the beast as 666, while others put it as 616. Footnotes are helpful in some Bible verse version which show this.
Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
Hebrew having no consonants makes sense, there's words such as the tetragrammaton YHWH which people today have translated as Yahweh, yet we don't know what the original vowels were, so the pronunciation can be different, such as ?YAH-way,? ?YAH-we"
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, ?I am who I am[a]. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ?I am has sent me to you.??
[a]Or I will be what I will be
(I like to call this the Pi verse, based off the mathematical constant 3.141592. It shows the circular nature of God's holiness, His completeness, like a circle, it's full of good).
Another example is with the demon MLK, which has various spellings consisting of Molech, Moloch or Molek.
The giant or fallen ones phrase is interesting. I refer to them as the "Nephilim", but like you said, Moses knew it means giant or fallen. But do we?
Genesis 6:4 - There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
That Luke example on time reminds me of how many ECTers will get the temporary time span of aionios and olam and misread it as "forever". Agelasting then incorrectly turns into everlasting. Even though "pertaining to an age" is the correct definition of eternal. We are in the age of sin and we will all enter into an age free of sin.
Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to agelasting life, and some to shame and agelasting contempt.
I was also reading your website and found this paragraph that stood out to me that mentions this "everlasting" mistranslation.
http://radical-reaction.com/shepherdsvoice/Eonian%20life,%20Not%20Eternal%20Life.htm
Quote
Many suppose that eonian must denote endlessness when describing God, as in Romans 16:26- "the eonian God." (King James wrongly makes this, "the everlasting God.") No. It?s another overreaction.
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- Harold Samson(g)
I will praise the name of God with song Psalm 69:30