Rev 4:11 mentions “forever and ever”

forever
αἰῶνας (aiōnas)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 165: From the same as aei; properly, an age

[and] ever.
αἰώνων (aiōnōn)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 165: From the same as aei; properly, an age;

It's clearly two different words used here. Both of which, literally, refer to an "age". Naturally, ages continue, one after a another, so you can see here, how it literally means "from an age to an age".

Now, tell me, if someone is the age of 1 years old, how long are they 1 years old? A year, obviously. But, someone does not stay at the same "age" as a 1 year old forever.

Clearly, the word aionios refers to a temporary length of time, as is written in the original Greek of the New Testament.

But how many verses mention this limited duration?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Gen. ix:12-16; Gen. xvii:8,13,19; and Num. xxv:13; Ex. xii:14,17; xxvii:21; xxviii:43; xxix:28; xxx:21; xxxi:16,17; Lev. vi:18,22; vii:34,36; x:15; xvi:29,31,34; xvii:7; xxiii:14,31,41; xxiv:3,8,9. Num. x:8; xv:15; xviii:8,11,19,23; xix:10,21; II Sam. xxiii:5; I Chron. xvi:17; Isa. xxiv:5; Ezek. xvi:60; Psa. lxxvii:5; Isa lxiii:11; Jer. vi:16; xviii:15; Job xxi:11; xxii:15; Isa. lviii:12; lxi:4; Ezek. xxvi:20; Prov. xxii:28; xxiii:10; Ezek. xxxvi:2; xxxv:5; Isa. liv:4; Jer. v:22; xviii:16; xxv:9,12; Ezek. xxxv:9; Jer. xx:17; xxiii:40; li:39; Micah ii:9.

 

How can an aion be endless if it’s plural? Why are these phrases repeated, aion to aion? A forever and a forever? One forever should take up the whole space already! If it’s two “forever words”, then neither forever words can be forever. A child who’s a 1-year-old forever would not age into the next age of a 2 year old! Yes, because we go beyond aions! It’s impossible to go beyond forever! But when we see “aion” as age, then this makes sense!-- ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti. -- See (Sept.) Ex. 15:18; Dan. 12:3; Micah 4:5. And even still, we reach the end of the aion? -- Matt. 13:39,40,49; 24:3; 28:20; I Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26. A 1 year old child who’s 1 year old forever must always stay 1 years old, yet here you go, their 2nd birthday parties coming up in these verses! And the cherry on top of this yummy Christian Universalist cake is that aion is literally defined as finite: Mark 4:19; Acts 3:21; Rom. 12:2; I Cor. 1:20, 2:20, 2:6, 3:18, 10:11.

 

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (NIV)


Merely states that the condition of entering heaven is not saying "Lord, Lord". I agree with this. To be saved, one must have faith alone in Christ. A lot of people pretend to be Christian by title, but aren't. It's not enough to merely recognize that God is one, like the demons do, but to believe in Christ to be made clean of all sins.

Just because someone is unable to enter Heaven at a present time period, does not mean that they are banned from Heaven forever. It’s like if someone below 18 wants to go to a bar, where only those above 18 can enter. Are they permanently banned from entering the bar? No. Only for that age, but in the next aion, when they are above 18, then behold, they can enter.

Look, for everybody, since we’re all sinners. At one point or another we were all “banned” from entering Heaven for a present moment. Yes, there was a time where none of us knew who Christ Jesus really was! But were we banned forever? No! If Christ is permanently banning one person from Heaven, then well, we’re all banned from Heaven, because we’re all sinners. Yet, some of us are going to Heaven, and because some are by mercy and grace of the Father, therefore all of us will eventually.

 

Whether it's KJV, ASV, NASB, etc like all the verses shown, the Bible was not written in English, simply put. No matter how many English translations say “forever”, the Bible was not written in English! All of those are English translations, at the end of the day. The only thing that matters is, literally, the original language that these verses were written in.

Look, I could make up a fake language and randomly assigned any sort of meaning to Bible words.

Certainly, Strong is merely a man who speaks English. It's interesting that you include a link to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, because the definition literally says

Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age

Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages
It is, therefore, impossible for a single age to be infinite, because it must be occupied by mutliple ages. If a child stays a 1 year old forever, then they cannot progress into a 2 year old. Yet, clearly, the Bible teaches that there is a series of ages.

A series of ages...... Yet, people are only torment for one age, or maybe many ages if you want to go that route. But how can a person be tormented for every single age? Would they not have had to been tortured since the beginning?

If you look at the wording "forever and ever". Why is there another ever?

Mark 9:42-48

 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

γέενναν (geennan)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 1067: Of Hebrew origin; valley of Hinnom; ge-henna, a valley of Jerusalem, used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment.
"everlasting" of course, meaning aionios meaning "pertaning to an age" meaning temporary

Unquenchable fire, God is a consuming fire Hebrews 12:29. Who can stop God? Nobody. Yet, does God ever stop doing good, no. God is a God that is not angry forever, therefore who does not torture forever

 

Matthew 8:11-13

merely states that there's an outer darkness, but does not say that that state of weeping ang gnashing of teeth lasts forever

Matthew 13:41-43 Matthew 13:49-50

furnace of fire. alright, but no mention that the state of being in a furnace of fire lasts forever. in fact, no blacksmith would leave an iron ingot in the fire forever, but puts it in their temporarily so it can be molded into a desired shape. it's like leaving bread in the oven, you leave it in there until it's cooked, not forever.

Jude 4-7, 12-13

everlasting meaning aionios meaning an age, which is a temporary limited amount of time

Revelation 20:10

forever and ever, describing aion, an age, which is a limited amount of time, or even aions if you want, a limited ser

Fiery hell

Black darkness

Outer darkness

Furnace of fire

Fire and brimstone

The smoke of their torment

The lake of fire which burns with brimstone

All those terms not show that the torment lasts forever

 

eternal fire = aionios fire = fire for an age

 

PSALM 103:8-14 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in mercy. He will not always strive with us, nor will He keep His anger forever.

He will not always strive with us because eventually all people will be molded into the desired shape by the unquenchable fire that is the Lord's love, mercy and grace. Surely, the Lord is unquenchable, His will can not be stopped. But nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Lord's desire is to torture forever, that is not His will.

 

"Hell" here is translated as

2 Timothy 4:1
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: (NIV)

Certainly there will be judgment, but let's not forget James 2:13
Mercy triumphs over judgment.

And as we know, judgment is not permanent, as all punishment is meant to be correctional. The Lord does not cast off forever

LAMENTATIONS 3:31-33 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he may punish cruelly, yet he will have compassion in the fullness of his love; he does not willingly afflict or punish any mortal man.

 

Mark 9:43-48

hell,

γέενναν (geennan)

Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular

Strong's 1067:  Of Hebrew origin; valley of Hinnom; ge-henna, a valley of Jerusalem, used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment.

The word "everlasting" does not appear in the Bible, it is a mistranslation of the Greek word "eon". What does eon mean? It refers to a specific time period. But here's the kicker! It denotes a time period with a beginning and an END.

 

Huh... so how can an eon punishment last forever if it has an end? Because, for something to last forever, it must not have an end.

https://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/forever2.htm

 

We see in scripture that people believe in Christ to be made clean of their sins, and they are granted permanent life, one that exists across multiple ages. Some people may be punished for an age, or ages even, but never for all ages. Awaiting all people is the age of no suffering, peace in New Jerusalem.

 

Here's a good book on the meaning of "Gehenna". You'll notice that this verse is included is on this list amongs the 12 passages.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch10_gehenna_destroy_destruction_hades.html

Matt. 5:22,   "shall be in danger of hell fire." 

Matt. 5:29,   "whole body shall be cast into hell."   

Matt. 5:30,   "whole body should be cast into hell."   

Matt.   10:28, "to destroy both soul and body in hell."   

Matt. 18:9,   "rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."       

Matt.   23:15, "more the child of hell than yourselves." 

Matt.   23:33, "can ye escape the damnation of hell?”  

Mark 9:43   “having two hands to go into hell.”

Mark 9:45,   "having two feet to be cast into hell."    

Matt. 9:47,   "having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." 

Luke 12:5,   "hath power to cast into hell." 

Jas. 3:6,   "and it is set on fire of hell."

All these references to Gehenna do not mean "hell" at all, for they refer to natural fire and to natural bodies burned in the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem for cremation.

Strong's Concordance mentions the same Hinnom valley described in the definition

 

The fire not being quenched.... God is a consumming fire, Hebrews 12:29. This is describing the nature of God, who is love. It does not say that this fire tortures forever, merely that the fire exists, which makes sense, since God is that fire and He exists.

 

Thayer: 762 asbestos {as'-bes-tos} from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 4570;; adj AV - unquenchable 2, never shall be quenched 2; 4 1) unquenched, unquenchable 1a) of eternal hell fire to punish the damned

 

With the Thayer verse, it mentions "eternal hell fire to punish the damned".

First, eternal means aioinios Greek olam Hebrew, meaning "age", so a set time period of punishment with a beginning and an end.

Second, the word "hell" does not appear in the Bible at all, here it describes the valley of Hinnom, 

Third, this does not even mention that the punishment of the damned lasts forever.

Fourth, damned means "punishment in a future state", not a punishment that lasts forever.

 

And a bonus one, the definition of damned does not say it lasts forever.

2. (a.) Sentenced to punishment in a future state; condemned;

It merely mentions a "future state". Surely, there will be sinners who will be punished in a future state. But this punishment does not last forever.

 

Strong’s Greek 762 asbestos as'-bes-tos from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 4570; not extinguished, i.e. (by implication) perpetual:--not to be quenched, unquenchable.

 

https://biblehub.com/mark/9-43.htm

unquenchable

ἄσβεστον (asbeston)

Adjective - Accusative Neuter Singular

Strong's 762:  Inextinguishable, unquenchable. Not extinguished, i.e. perpetual.

 

It mentions that the fire is inextinguishable. But what is preventing it from being extinguished? It is the will of God. It will continue to burn until it has fulfilled His purpose. The perpetual nature is not talking about an actual physical fire, but rather, the nature of God. What is God's nature? To not be angry forever, thus, to not torture forever.

 

PSALM 103:8-14 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in mercy. He will not always strive with us, nor will He keep His anger forever. 

When you really think about it, the perpetual fire is more of an argument for Christian Universailsm, because it shows how God's mercy, grace and loves is perpetual!

 

Now then... What is this Gehenna worm? It is the offal used to breed worms, where the expression comes from. But, let's take a look at the valley of Hinnom. If this fire is truly "inextinguishable" then that fire should be still going right?

 

https://landandbible.blogspot.com/2019/05/gehenna-was-not-continual-burning-fire.html

It mentions in this site that the fire was burning in order to dispose of the corpses of the enemies after battle, like the Assyrian army. So we know that the fire burned up the enemies corpses until they were ashes. This was because it was faster than burial. (Isa. 37:36). 

 

Some more reasons why physical fire does not burn forever

1) No second temple period evidence sources of physical fire burning forever

2) No archaelogical evidence of physical fire burning forever

3) Burning garbage is a modern phenomenon. Most Second Temple Period garbage is not flammable, thus physical fire not burning forever.

4) 20 inches of rainfall on Jerusalem every year, from December to March, 4 months. How can a physical burning fire survive that? As we should (hopefully) all know, water puts out fire!

5) In long dry summers, fires were put out to prevent bush fires from spreading, it's dangerous, thus no physical fire burning forever.

6) Acridic smoke would go right in ancient Jerusalem, biological hazard, so no physical fire burning forever.

 

https://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/regarding-mark-chapter-9-'unquenchable-fire'/msg107829/#msg107829

In the Scriptures an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be extinguished until it has fulfilled its purpose. Lev. vi: 12-13 is an example of a fire that was extinguished long ago. Same with

 Isa. xxxiv:9-10. It’s figurative language, because physical fire does not burn forever.